Thoughts on leaving the charismatic church

I'm leaving my church.

More than that in fact, I'm also moving away from the charismatic movement in which I have spent the vast majority of my nine years as a Christian. This is a huge and scary shift for me, and it has happened for so many reasons and over such a long period of time that there's way I can go into it all here. In fact I'm not sure I even understand it all myself, I think it's one of those things I will understand and evaluate more fully many years from now. What follows are just a few snapshots and impressions from my time within the charismatic movement in general and New Frontiers International inparticular. Although there are plenty of negatives in my experience, this is not a personal or bitter attack on the organisations involved.

It all started just over a year ago at the UK's biggest annual charismatic knees-up known as Faith Camp. It was the sort of big, extravagant, super-meeting that I'd been to all my Christian life. The meetings were kind of a blur, there was lots of singing and shouting and much talk of 'annointing', 'breakthrough', 'the next level', 'overflow', and so on. There were also the annual flurry of prophecies predicting a coming revival, chastisement for those in the traditional churches who were blocking the current 'move of God' that was about to sweep the nation, and so on. I was sat in an arena with 7,000 other people listening to this, and whilst they were all on their feet cheering, applauding and Amen-ing for minutes on end, I remained sat in my seat, completely unmoved and (dare I say it?) bored. I was thinking Where was God in all this? Why do I feel so alienated from the enthusiasm and passion exhibited in those around me? For years I had considered this kind of behaviour and worship to be par for the course as an 'on-fire'  Christian (and if you've been in charismatic circles for more than 5 minutes you'll know what I mean by 'on fire') but now it just seemed, well, weird. I'd been feeling a bit sure about those kind of things for a while, but that week at Faith Camp certainly seemed to mark a beginning of transition in my spiritual life.

This was something of a watershed for me and marked a change of direction in my discipleship that has now culminated in me leaving the church I've been at since I moved to Manchester. A few years ago I would have been to meetings like the one at Faith Camp and been the first one down at the front for prayer, and if there was even a tiny little sin I thought I might have committed I'd be sure to make a 'recommitment' just in case I died in my sleep that night and wound up in hell because I'd denied Jesus by not going down to the front to be prayed for at the end of every rousing sermon about the new thing that God was about to do in these last days, and so on. It's crazy, but that's how I lived and breathed my Christian life for a great many years, but now those days are behind me, and maybe for good too I think.

The evangelical-charismatic tradition I belong to unfortunately has a tendency to ignore two areas of supreme importance that I believe will cripple it in the long run. The first is almost complete and often wilful ignorance of anything that has happened in Church history. There is of course the oft-repeated mantra the charismatic church is attempting to 'get back' to the book of Acts (by which they mean the prominence of signs and wonders, speaking in tongues etc) and so there is a sense in which they have a sense of (very selective) historical continuity - but with a gap of about 2,000 years in between. In practice though, it is as if God did nothing inbetween the early church and the mid-twentieth century.

There is a hunger for the 'latest move of God' and 'the now word of God' in preaching, but almost never any reference to any of those who have gone before us, the struggles they faced in prayer and mission, the lessons they learned and the insights they offer, and so on.

What about the historical Church?

Following directly from this belief is an almost complete disregard for any other historical denominations. Other churches are viewed with suspicion as being 'dead' or 'traditional' (presupposing the ridiculous false dichotomy that where there is tradition, there cannot be spiritual vitality) and that while those who attend 'traditional' churches may not be damned entirely, their spirituality is certainly suspect and they are definitely not surfing along on the latest wave of God's Spirit. My own decision to start attending a non-charismatic church will be (and already is) viewed by some as being tantamount to apostasy in what is a charismatic version of the old Roman Catholic dogma extra ecclesium nulla salus (no salvation outside of the church) though it is infinitely less well-informed and in any case anyone who thinks they have a corner on where God's Spirit is and isn't working should read John 3 and think again. The cross of Christ, not the gifts of the Spirit, is the unifying point for Christians, and Christ's own prayer that all his followers should be one refutes any attempt by those who follow him to divide from and decry other parts of the body of Christ.

The importance of intellectual development as a part of faith is often overlooked

The other extremely serious tendency of the charismatics is a profoundly felt anti-intellectualism. Intellectualism has not always benefited the church, but anti-intellectualism is a thousand times more damaging. So-called 'head-knowledge' is rejected and 'heart-knowledge' is preferred instead (the preference for inner feeling over objective revelation being purest liberalism of course!) I was once told by someone that I needed to have a 'spirit of theology' cast out of me (really) because intellectual study of the scriptures was detrimental to faith (tell that to Paul, or Augustine, or Luther...) and would surely lead to me to be afflicted by one of the many demons that seemingly hide behind every bush and inside every textbook. How do you respond to a leader who says that to you without so much as a hint of irony? How am I to worship God with all my mind as Jesus commands if there is a mentality in church which views the mind as an evil to be bypassed in favour of a more 'supernatural' wisdom and understanding?

I find it really hard that if I suggest that I don't believe in a literal six-day creation on both biblical and theological grounds, my faith and 'on-fireness' are called into question, or that if I mention that not all the Gospels were written by eyewitnesses, people begin to question whether or not I 'really believe the Bible'. Granted, you don't have to be Karl Barth or a latter-day St Paul to be a Christian, but I think that the majority of Christians in the 'bible-believing' churches are educated in Sunday School as children and intellectually their faith stays there throughout their whole adult life. I can hear grumbling after that last point, but please understand my heart here. I'm not belittling the 'simple faith' of the earnest Christian, but I would oppose wholeheartedly a simplistic faith that never asks any questions, never changes its mind and never bothers to learn anything beyond Bible ABC.

I am inherently curious and ask questions about everything, and I hope I always will. But I want to be in a church where I can ask questions too. I don't mean the subversive and divisive questions that come from a prideful attitude, but ones that cause us to change and remould our faith and draw us closer to God. I feel as though I cannot ask these questions without being fobbed off or muffled, and when I've raised any suggestions and critique of the church I'm told that I have a problem in my relationship with God. I need to give more, pray more, go to more cell group meetings, and so on.

The end result is that over the last year or so I've had to develop a spirituality that is no longer sustaining me or supplementing my contribution to the church, my prayer life and fellowship is now having to help me to survive church, which should make it obvious that there is something severely wrong somewhere. I raised this issue with some church leaders but was told that I just needed to give more and get stuck into more activities, but if the truth be told, I have nothing to give because where I am now with God seems so very far removed from the church which I have been a part of for so many years. I feel as though I'm talking a different language, or that I'm from another time in history.

Miraclesssssssssa!

There are of course many good things about the family of churches to which I belong. Notable bloggers Adrian Warnock and Mark Heath belong to the same group of churches, although I feel that in the long term where the charismatic movement is headed and where I am headed are not in the same direction. There are still many great things about the charismatic movement however. For instance, the openness and belief in God's power to heal today, the readiness to speak and hear prophetic words, to speak and praise in tongues, and so on.

These practices are distinctive of the charismatic movement as it seeks to be in tune with the Holy Spirit, though funnily enough it is in this area where I have the most concern. There is much talk of the 'supernatural' and 'miracles', though these terms are actually quite misleading I think. In the Enlightenment, God became a remote god, a kind of absentee landlord who was 'up there' somewhere in heaven, far removed from events here in the 'natural' realm. There was scepticism about the reality of miracles, healings, and so forth. Miracles however proved the reality of the supernatural, and they proved that there definitely was a God. If you like, the 'supernatural' was a divine action plunging vertically out of eternity and into history before withdrawing back up to heaven.

The terminology 'supernatural' (as opposed to 'natural') originates out of this mindset, but it is not a biblical one. The Holy Spirit is not the power of eternity popping in and out of history to fix the otherwise unfixable, the Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing what is to come, and a foretaste of the power of the age to come. What I mean is, the activity of the Holy Spirit is all eschatological activity, pointing to the coming Kingdom of God, pointing forwards. We are not flapping about in the present trying to get a taste of the 'supernatural' to 'prove' the other-wordly power of God, the healings, prophecies, and worship of the charismatics ought to be inseparably bound up with the proclamation, mediation and practice of the Kingdom which God has announced is coming. Pursuit of supernatural power without coupling this to the Kingdom of God is throwing away your roadmap to the future. This difference between natural-supernatural v eschatological might seem like hair-splitting, but let me continue in my concerns in this area...

The work of the Spirit

Everywhere in scripture we see the Spirit of God working at every level of creation, whether it be the awesome sustaining power of the cosmos, or stirring prophets to speak out against godlessness, violence and injustice. The Holy Spirit is involved in every area of the life of the world, and also the whole life of the believer (see this post for some of my theology behind this). Yet for all the triumphalism that the charismatics are the only growing church in the UK and are at the cutting edge of what the Spirit is doing, the charismatic movement has had almost no impact on the life of the nation as a whole. In the life of the church it may be a big splash with dozens of prophetic conferences, special annointings, revival meetings, spiritual warfare seminars and so on, but outside of the church it is barely a drip. Is this what we should expect from the Holy Spirit? To withdraw inside the walls of the Church and have almost nothing to say about the outside world? Is God's sole desire to take us the next level of 'breakthrough' and let the world rot? I do not think so. And yet so often this seems to be the case. The Sunday after the London bombings another 'annointed' speaker (there is no shortage of them around) came to preach to tell us all that the time of suffering was at an end, that we were headed for 'breakthrough' (they never define what that is, but I really want to know) and so on and so on, but no one uttered a word about the London bombings, or mentioned anything even remotely related to what the entire world was asking about and grieving over. No one has said anything about the Iraq War, or about how the environment is being destroyed, or about the perils facing a society that is so greedy and materialistic, yet I believe that these issues are important to God, and that part of being his church in the power of the Spirit means being involved in these things.

The Holy Spirit is not about miracles and making sure everyone falls over on a Sunday morning. How does that bless the world? How is God glorified if his work in us is not impacting the world he created and loves?

I'm so tired of doing church this way. It is crushingly sterile.

I'm tired of prophetic words predicting a coming revival every week, I'm tired of the weirdos who see a demon hiding in every dark corner, I am weary of prayer meetings that degenerate into nothing more that commanding various unseen spirits to do this and that, of prayer that is nothing more than shouted declarations of victory and lacks any real content or passion. The truth is that I miss encountering God at church. That is not to say he is not there, but that he is made so inaccessible and alien. That worship of Jesus can be so loud and flashy and yet so often be so shallow and dull. It shouldn't be.

I'm not sure where my story goes from here. I have started attending what may be termed a non-charismatic church, though in so many other ways it is infinitely more in step with the Spirit so many 'Spirit-filled' churches are. I may return to the charismatic movement one day, I do not know. I think I hope so, though I am not spiritually strong enough or wise enough to survive there at the time being. I'll keep you posted.

 

Thank you for your important and honest statement… important because something is showing through what happened in your life when you found yourself bored. The disconnect with the surround.

I also deeply appreciate your comments about the insulation existing between the charismatic movement and the world… an insulation which the movement itself is part of creating. I’ll keep an eye on this site in the future.
Mark (Email) (URL) - 29 09 05 - 01:21 (Edit / Delete)

You know, I relate to a lot of where you are- I “came to Christ” (as if it was really me doing the work) in a Vineyard church, and after about 5 years and a nasty internal split, left with basically the same feeling: “ugh.” So much hype, so much worshiptainment – and above all, the “spiritual elite” mentality that seemed to be naturally bred and encouraged there, as if we were the only ones (or among the chosen) to be on the true frontlines of God’s work.

In all honesty, I haven’t been back to a church-building since- I don’t think it’s wrong, but I haven’t found any that really practice the simplicity of an ordinary life lived wholly in Jesus, and learning what it is to walk that out daily.

No real point to this comment other than, “I feel ya, bro.”

Blessings to you on the journey!
Chris (Email) (URL) - 29 09 05 - 04:19 (Edit / Delete)

Thanks for the comments guys, they’re much appreciated. It seems that I’m not the only one who has been in a similar situation, which is greatly encouraging :)
Sven (Email) - 29 09 05 - 08:17 (Edit / Delete)

Some good thoughts here. I never came into the charismatic movement, though I know and have known many who did. I recognise some of the characteristics that you describe. They are why I have never been tempted to ‘join’. Of course, that’s not to say there are not deficiencies in my own neck of the woods…
Stephen (Email) - 29 09 05 - 09:13 (Edit / Delete)

I can’t say I’m surprised you’re moving on. Your writings have indicated your different theological outlook to New Frontiers for quite some time now. I pray that you will find a good church in which you find acceptance and fruitful avenues of service. I also hope that despite your disappointment with New Frontiers you can identify some strengths to take with you into your new context.

Maybe in years to come, as you sit crosslegged listening to chanting monks, you will wistfully long for the days of dancing undignified and singing “na na na na na hey!”. But then again, maybe not.
Mark Heath (Email) (URL) - 29 09 05 - 12:22 (Edit / Delete)

Hi Sven, thanks for being so honest. I think you’ve identified some really interesting areas but in a thoughtful and non-condescending way. Best wishes for the future.
Mark Greer (Email) (URL) - 29 09 05 - 19:40 (Edit / Delete)

Thanks for that, Sven – good to see you blogging again, too

pax et bonum
John (Email) (URL) - 29 09 05 - 23:10 (Edit / Delete)

Sven
It might be helpful to your readers to distinguish between generic charismatic things like the “Faith Camp” you mentioned (which unless I am mistaken had nothing to do with newfrontiers) and newfrontiers itself. I couldn’t agree more that there is much flakiness in some charismatic circles. I think people make a mistake if they assume all charismatic churches are the same however.

I pray God will bless you Sven, and I for one do believe he is very active outside of so-called charismatic churches too- may he find you where you are and help you take your next step in your journey of faith.
Adrian (Email) - 30 09 05 - 00:31 (Edit / Delete)

Sven – Great article. I think we have alot in common, as I wrote a similar post on Worship this week. Check it out if you’re interested.

[[http://highargument.blogspot.com/2005/..]]
Grey Owl (Email) (URL) - 01 10 05 - 00:07 (Edit / Delete)

Coming from an academic non-Charismatic background, your journey seems very strange to me. I am going in the other direction. Please correct me if I am wrong, but in the charismatic spectrum, Newfrontiers appears to me to be on the end that most values the word. Is that correct?
Andrewfn (Email) (URL) - 01 10 05 - 02:06 (Edit / Delete)

Andrew,

Yes, on the whole NFI has a higher emphasis on the word than many charismatic groups, as the founders had a very strong background in the brethren movement.

On the whole though, the quality of preaching in NFI ranges from the very good to the very poor so it really comes down to individual pastors and preachers at each local church.
Sven - 01 10 05 - 05:46 (Edit / Delete)

Sven
newfrontiers has more roots in the baptist scene than brethern (although some did come from brethern as well as other set ups)

I think we should be careful before we say people’s preaching is “very poor” – sometimes our assessments can be faulty.
Adrian (Email) - 01 10 05 - 21:49 (Edit / Delete)

Adrian,

Yes of course any assessment of preaching is always subjective, and the quality of preaching/teaching in NFI varies widely. On the whole it’s not too bad, and there are some very good preachers. Equally though, there is much preaching that is poor, especially much of the expository preaching that goes on. Perhaps it is more noticeable in the Manchester NFI churches where I’ve been involved, but I often found the approach to the Bible in preaching to be almost cavalier at times. I mean the kind of sermon that begins with a text and goes ‘what the Bible is saying here is…’ when the Bible is saying nothing of the sort.

This isn’t unique to NFI though of course, most denominations have both good and not so good preachers.
Sven - 02 10 05 - 00:22 (Edit / Delete)

thanks for sharing this sven. i can really relate to it.. i grew up in a pretty traditional (and as i thought back then, boring) church. got into charismatic worship and stuff as a teenager, and it just seemed so real. so i joined a charismatic church when i moved away from my parents. and i was really really involved there for about 5 years.. and then i changed, the worship and stuff that used to move me felt unreal.. it was around when kid a was released, so thom yorke’s words: “i’m not here, this isn’t happening..” became the soundtrack of my head during worship. it is just so weird how one can change so much.. i still don’t understand all of it.

god bless you on your continued journey.
dan fritzon (Email) (URL) - 02 10 05 - 14:25 (Edit / Delete)

Thanks for this interesting post, Sven. As a child I was raised in charismatic/Pentecostal churches, but I moved on when I decided that the radically experiential approach to faith and worship was in fact obscuring the gospel of Jesus Christ. Although I’m still very glad I made this decision, today I think there are also many valuable things to learn from the charismatic churches.

Incidentally, another blogger has just been posting some similar reflections to yours at [[http://in-fraction.blogspot.com/2005/0..]]
Ben Myers (Email) (URL) - 03 10 05 - 00:51 (Edit / Delete)

You are not alone – this all rings so many bells. I spent 5 or so years in the Charismatic movemment (Elim Pentecostal), and finally left when I realised it was all going round in circles and never changed, when I could no longer tell the hype from the holy and was prayed to be delivered from a spirit of intellectualism when I moved on to study my MSc. I’m now a Minister in the CofE – and there are plenty us who have trodden the same road.

Trust God, and trust the mind he has given you. (Found you via John)
drmoose (Email) (URL) - 04 10 05 - 14:36 (Edit / Delete)

Googling brought this up for me. You might be interested in my account (see link), particularly the paragraph entitled “no past, no future”. You might also enjoy the Ship of Fools website where I hang out a lot on the bulletin boards. I’d like to write more about all the theological issues I have with NewFrontiers now, but no time as I am busy trying to earn a living for now.
Eutychus (Email) (URL) - 04 10 05 - 20:06 (Edit / Delete)

Sven, thank you for your kind comment on my blog, in-fraction, and for your painful and honest account here on worldofsven. There’s a good bit I’d like to talk with you about, and you are very welcome to email me at the address provided. One place that has become my refuge in my own break with the past, though without suggesting a way forward as of yet, is a return ad fontes to the texts and confessions of the English and Continental reformations. I recommend it, as they are proving a great salve to my theological lonliness during this map-less transition.
Thom (Email) (URL) - 06 10 05 - 20:26 (Edit / Delete)

Sven, greatly appreciated your post. I suspect that you will find great consolation in using the means of grace, including meeting with other Christians, which is the main thing that you must not stop. You will probably find that your needs are best met where the prevailing view of the use of charismatic gifts is continualist rather than charismatic or cessationist but even among cessationists you might find a refuge if there is a positive attitude to both Word and Spirit (and a correct looking for the answer to prayer). I’d advise you to avoid hyper-cessationism but I don’t know of anyone who actually labels themselves as such.
John/.
John Kilpatrick (Email) (URL) - 13 10 05 - 14:01 (Edit / Delete)

Hi Sven,

I enjoyed reading your post. Although, I am not involved in the Charismatic movement, I do understand your frustration. I think your observations are very accurate.

My mother attends a Charismatic church. When I first became a Christian I had a lot of questions about theology, and my mother said that my questions were influenced by demonic forces. So, I totally understand the anti-intellectualism thing.

When my father got sick last fall my mother told us not to pray for my father to be healed, but rather to “speak to the cancer.” She said we didn’t need to pray for healing or ask if it was God’s will, because our healing was already paid for in the atonement (“by his stripes…”). She would get really mad if anyone prayed a prayer that included the words, “if it be thy will” or “thy will be done.” To make a long story short, my dad died. At this point she said that my dad either did not have enough faith to be healed or God knew that he could not trust him to be healed because he would go back to being an alcoholic. So, basically every time someone doesn’t get healed, it is their fault. I have a real problem with this kind of thinking. Instead of having compassion for those who are hurting, they are blamed for their problems and told to “have more faith”, “get rid of any unconfessed sin”, or “stop speaking negatively.”

I attended church with my mom on several occassions when I first became a Christian, and I started thinking that there was something wrong with me because I didn’t feel what everyone else was feeling. There is so much emphasis in the movement on the supernatural. It seems that everyone has visions, “now words” from God, prophesies, and etc.. I was like, “God must not like me because this never happens to me.”

I also don’t get the whole “seed faith” thing. Every time I turn on the tv, I hear Charismatic televangelists promising people will receive jobs, homes, cars, etc… if they are “one of the 70” that God has called to give ”$58”.

I completely agree with your assessment of the antagonism of the Charismatic movement to historical Christianity. I doubt very seriously that my mother has ever heard of Calvin, Augustine, Spurgeon, etc..
gina (Email) (URL) - 13 10 05 - 14:22 (Edit / Delete)

I find it really hard that if I suggest that I don’t believe in a literal six-day creation on both biblical and theological grounds… I’m not belittling the ‘simple faith’ of the earnest Christian, but I would oppose wholeheartedly a simplistic faith that never asks any questions, never changes its mind and never bothers to learn anything beyond Bible ABC.

Umm. I’m just curious. Are you implying that anyone who believes in a literal six-day creation has a “simple faith” and doesn’t ask questions?

Because I think that that could just as easily be said of people who blindly accept man-made science’s views of evolution and the age of the earth. (not that I am saying you blindly accept either of those things – I have no idea what you believe about creation)
blestwithsons (Email) (URL) - 13 10 05 - 17:40 (Edit / Delete)

Hi Blestwithsons,

No I’m not attacking ‘simple faith’ or even six-day creationism (though I am not a 6 day creationist, just for the record.) What I am attacking is the attitude that deems intellectual study of the Bible and theology to be negative. In my experience, people are (rightly) encouraged to grow spiritually, and in love, and so on, but for some reason developing one’s intellect as far as matters of faith go is not given the same emphasis, and is indeed frowned upon.
Sven (Email) - 13 10 05 - 22:31 (Edit / Delete)

i’m surprised you’d leave the charismatic movement for “historical denominations” in order to get out of denominationalism. i think the root of your discontent is a denominational attitude among charismatics, which i agree is terrible. (by “denominational attitude,” i mean excluding other christians and insisting on “orthodoxy”.) however, i have a hard time thinking of any other churches without this problem.
ts (URL) - 14 10 05 - 06:19 (Edit / Delete)

Bro. Sven,

Outstanding post! You are far, FAR from alone in this. I was baptized in the Assemblies of God in 1991. I was 19 and bought into all of it. I experienced the catechism-by-innuendo that codifies the unwritten teachings of Pentecostalism. I can confirm the endemic nature of the “us vs. them” mindset, or, “annointed” vs. “frozen chosen” as we’d say (when speaking amongst ourselves, of course). I’ve seen a pastor who wanted to give his message from God open his sermon with, “OK, let’s get the Scripture out of the way…” so he could get on with what he really wanted to say. Manifestations became personal spiritual trophies, so spiritual performance (or the apperance thereof) was paramount. One thing that got me, but you don’t mention it here, is the tall tales (especially miracles and just about anything related to spiritual warfare) that seemed to circulate. I’m ashamed to admit how many of those tales I passed along to others who cheerfully did the same. Integrity of testimony had little to do with it because the miracle in the story was all that mattered. When it comes to testimony, I was once handed the microphone and asked to share my testimony about some manifestation I experienced. When I later asked about sharing my testimony of coming to Christ, it was make clear that the platform and mircophone were not for such things. The senationalism, experiential validation, anti-intellectualism, anti-Berean mindset is not limited to just one branch of the Pentecostal movement. If you feel alone, my experience as an ex-Pentecostal of 10 years tells me that it’s because many/most who are recovering from the movement are simply too burned-out or too ashamed to talk. Just love them, Sven, and you will model Christ to them as Christ himself reached those wounded, burdened and burned by the Pharisaic system of external apperances and burdensome Law.

As for me, I finally left after doing the unthinkable: I got engaged to someone from outside Pentecostal lines. From the pulpit I was assured that we AG folk didn’t consider the “frozen chosen” to really be unsaved. But my then-bride-to-be and I experienced the exact suspicion and condemnation about which you write above: they wouldn’t marry us. The pastor’s simply explained, “I’ll marry two non-Christians… I’ll marry two Christians, but I won’t marry a Christian and a non-Christian and I won’t marry you two” (Pentecostal and non-Pentecostal). That was all I could take.
Phil (Email) - 14 10 05 - 09:01 (Edit / Delete)

24 comments? I just wanted to be the person who added the 25th, and therefore I am.
Jonny (Email) (URL) - 14 10 05 - 12:34 (Edit / Delete)

As a presbyterian (PCUSA) married to a Catholic, member of a PCUSA church with a minister who speaks in tongues, I appreciate your comments. My perspective starts from a deeply Calvinistic, Presbyterian background, that values scripture, that values intellectual understanding. Into that deep watering of the Word, has come an intimate knowing God, where He speaks to me. “My” Blog, called Poems From God, is focused on both hearing God, & on “deep” theological studies, seeking to understand the paradoxes. Each path is infinite, never will I fully understand theology, or be able to so clearly hear God I live a life fully intimate, yet independent.

Added to this blessing, is going to both Catholic and Presbyterian churches, (when we married 34 years ago, my wife and I, agreed to both go to both churches, it has been a blessing). The liturgical Catholic church, has often been the place I most clearly hear God, since it gives space to listen. Both Presbyterian and Charismatic services seem to lack space to, “be still and know that I am God”.

Although, one of my strangest encounters with God was during communion in a Presbytery meeting, where as a communion plate was passed, I heard: “Turn aside and follow Me. See Me in the homeless man…” At which point, I both tried to write down what I was hearing, as well as take communion. God does have a sense of humor.

I am glad you are seeing it is both, both journeys are important. It is like walking a log, you can fall off either side. (the high church/low church thing is another log)
Presbypoet (Email) (URL) - 14 10 05 - 17:49 (Edit / Delete)

Hey brother,

Sounds as if you are in transition and are embarking on an adventure.

I left the Presby church after our family had been in it for six generations. I know the pain.

You might consider house churches as a temp or permanent solution. Godspeed!

[[http://housechurch.org]]
Zane Anderson (Email) (URL) - 20 10 05 - 14:01 (Edit / Delete)

I happened upon your blog while searching “leaving the charismatic church and going back.” Why? Because my husband and I spent a long time in not-so-flakey charismatic churches, but then ended up in an incredibly off-base place…which then drove us to leave “charismania” entirely. It has been quite a few years and we find ourselves steeped in the opposite sort of environment. Instead of anti-intellectualism, we are drowning in the over-intellectualizing of everything. If you don’t know the Greek, the Hebrew, the history/culture of the time surrounding the text, you are not to trust your judgment and you are told you don’t “really” understand what God was saying. It usually turns out that God is telling you nothing, He was only telling it to whoever, wherever 2000 years ago..so you should be a good sport, give your tithe (but that somehow escapes being historically/culturally relevant), and let the scholars tell you how it goes. (Make sure you add to the building fund!) It is dead. There is no life. We’re told that miracles don’t happen, haven’t happened for ages, that God doesn’t really care about your pathetic here and now because He has bigger things on His mind. Instead of sensationalism, we have anti-sensationalism…a monotonous existence, with an applauded absence of again of “fire.” We find ourselves dried up and desperate for springs of spiritual rejuvenation. So, my caution is, while avoiding the excesses of charismania, don’t go so far away that you forget to taste and see that the Lord is good. We’ve almost forgotten and that is a sad, sad state to be in.
Glynis (Email) - 18 11 05 - 15:14 (Edit / Delete)

Thanks for your article, you say some very interesting things.
I think you know that they use mantras.
The bible also does not predict revival.
Thanks once again let the spirit guide you with the word of God, you will eventually be in the place where God wants you to be.

Also they mention fire, are these people going to the lake of fire ?
lee g - 08 03 06 - 17:48 (Edit / Delete)

OK so have you stumbled on Post-Charismatic yet? [[http://www.robbymac.org/charismatic/]]

Definitely worth the read. My early formation was in the Pentecostal/Charismatic world and after a brief hiatus with the Baptists I really wanted to find something that was both midway between the two and non-isolationist. I found that in the Vineyard. And since then I’ve been very much interested in buiding links to a historical identity within the congregation I lead.

Frank
Frank Emanuel (Email) (URL) - 21 03 06 - 21:21 (Edit / Delete)

Great and perceptive blog. (from another Faith camp exile, also living in Manchester).
Richard (Email) (URL) - 30 03 06 - 20:52 (Edit / Delete)

I’m amazed at how much of myself and my own thoughts I read in your post. I was born into the Assemblies of God and attended their college in Florida. It took me so long to realize that if none of the A/G or otherwise Pentecostal/Charismatic churches seemed to be right for me (and my family), then maybe it was because I was looking in the wrong place. Thank God I finally figured out where to look, and I am home, now.
Tamara (Email) (URL) - 28 04 06 - 05:16 (Edit / Delete)

I understand your position as well. My two cents:

After running like mad from the Pentecostal/Charismatic camp (years in a fundy type church, then a P/C college), my wife and I ended up in the American capital of evangelicalism. We grew a lot there, and ended up in an Anglican church with “charismatic” leanings. In other words, they believed in and prayed for healing, but not in the name-it-and-claim-it sense. We spent our time in the Scriptures, and in the sacraments. It was like Caprisun after tackle football in the front yard.

Now, we’ve migrated again, this time to the United Methodist Church. I find I don’t really fit anywhere theologically. I’m a quasi-Reformed sacramentalist who occasionally speaks in tongues. I’m not sure there’s a prescription for that.

Still, thanks for your post, and let me echo what others have said, you’re not alone. Let me also quote Tolkien by way of Bilbo Baggins: “Not all those who wander are lost…”

Gratia et Pax.
Jamie (Email) (URL) - 31 05 06 - 02:53 (Edit / Delete)

I just wanted to say that I share you experience with the charismatic movement. I was disillusioned for the very reasons you mentioned plus more.

I was converted in an Assemblies of God church and graduated from an Assemblies of God college here in Florida. I then went on to graduate from an evangelical seminary in the Wesleyan holiness tradition where I became a Calvinist. Ha.

I spent over 10 years in the charismatic movement and eventually found it to be smoke and mirrors and not genuine at all. The focus on existential experiences lends itself to deceptive practices that amount to shifting and switching rather than genuinely supernatural “miracles.” The supernatural is redefined in such a way as to allow for mere mental perceptions to pass off as genuinely supernatural events that could be objectively documented, when in fact they are merely anecdotal and questionable.

I also have problems with the theological foundations and roots of the movement. I graduated from a Pentecostal college so I got a good theological background for their movement. I was also a member of The Society for Pentecostal Studies for over 2 or 3 years.

There are at least two problem areas for me regarding the theology of the movement. The first and most problematic is the Word of Faith Movement which has roots in Christian Science and New Thought, both cults. The link comes from Kenneth Hagin and other faith healers of the 1940’s and 50’s who plagiarized from E.W. Kenyon, a Baptist faith healer who attended Emerson College in Boston to learn oratory or public speaking. It was there that Kenyon syncretized his Baptist faith with Christian Science and New Thought doctrines. Hence, much of what you witness in the name and claim and health and wealth circles comes from Christian Science. If you doubt this, check out some of the popular Christian Science “preachers” and compare and contrast! You can verify this by reading D.R. McConnell’s book, A Different Gospel, published by Hendrickson.

I might also mention that the other theological foundation of the charismatic movement comes from the Wesleyan holiness movement, which advocated two works of grace: salvation and entire sanctification. This produced two levels of Christianity, carnal Christians who were simply born again and “entirely sanctified” Christians who were more spiritual. Donald Dayton’s book, The Theological Roots of Pentecostalism, documents this thoroughly.

The charismatic movement started as an outgrowth of Pentecostalism in 1960 after an Episcopal priest in California was baptized in the Holy Spirit after attending an Assemblies of God meeting. Father Dennis Bennett, I believe was his name.



My prayers are with you,

Charlie
Charlie Ray (URL) - 12 06 06 - 20:41 (Edit / Delete)